You jerkoffs who are so opposed to taxpayer funds being used for a stadium fail to see the economic benefits of having the vikings in Minnesota. Has anyone done the math of the immediate expense versus the extended impact of the team being secured in Minnesota for the forseeable future? Do any of you care how much the team means to a huge amount of residents as well as fans of the team across the country? I guess if it's not opera or arts and culture that you deem worthy you don't care about it. I understand that Minnesotans are taxed to the point of ridiculousness. Perhaps the state should do away with some of it's welfare programs tha benefit the shiftless and lazy and cut the taxes imposed on the hardworking citizens of your great state.The Vikings belong in Minnesota . I fyou do nothing to help the organization progress I assure you they will leave. Remember the Lakers? How about the Northstars? When the Vikings have left and you realize you've made a mistake in allowing it to happen it will be too late.

In fact, yes, several people here (including myself) have tried to do the math. See the long comment thread here:

www.fieldofschemes.com/news/archives/2011/06/4580_vikings_stadium_12.html#comments

There is undeniably a price point at which it's worth it to put some public money into a stadium, both in terms of the economic benefits (though those are a sliver of what the teams usually claim) and the emotional benefits of having a team. Unfortunately, there has never been a stadium in history that has generated $800 million in public benefits, which is what we're talking about here in terms of costs.

If the Vikings are really dead set on insisting that without $800 million in subsidies they're leaving town, then all indications are that Minnesota has better ways to spend that money — whether on opera houses or schoolteachers or just handing $1,600 to every man, woman, and child in Ramsey County. If they want to lower their price, that's a different story, but right now this is less a negotiation by the Vikings than an attempt at a massive cash grab.

Neil,

I apologize for the thread hijack... Tell me how this makes the Maloofs a better financial partner:

www.sacbee.com/2011/06/15/3701395/maloofs-settle-debt-problem.html

I don't see it at all.

If sports teams are so valuable to a "huge amount of residents as well as fans of the team across the country," why isn't it economically advantageous to pay for a stadium with the money of those who support the team so much? That billionaires continually ask the public take the risks (socialized costs)... That should be all you need to know.

"Has anyone done the math of the immediate expense versus the extended impact of the team being secured in Minnesota for the forseeable future?"

The MSFC (Metropolitan Sports Facilities Commission) has done the math on the costs vs the impact at msfc.com. When the organizations whose very future depends on a new stadium getting built using the most optimistic forecasts still says that the state/local partners will lose money on this, it's tough to figure out how *anyone* can still say that a new stadium is a good investment. Unless you like an investment portfolio that returns -50% of your money...

Hey Mikey;

Sounds like you are advocating a plebiscite on stadium funding for the Vikings... something I'm all for.

Let the voting public decide whether or not to subsidize the Vikings. What could be more democratic than that?

John,

Be careful what you ask for. In Santa Clara we basically we given the vote you advocate a year ago. The 49ers were able to fund, abetted by the council majority, a massive disinformation campaign that would lead an uninformed populace to conclude the vote was really about schools, good jobs, and "Santa Clara" itself!

Granted it was probably easier to pull off the scam in a small targeted area than a major population center, but still, I'd be wary about a vote unless there were strict truth in advertising strictures for the ballot language (which were missing in Santa Clara).

SCJ;

It's true that stadium beneficiaries are generally far more willing to spend on propaganda than their opponents.

However, all we can reasonably ask is that it comes to a public vote. It is up to the citizens to a) educate themselves broadly and b) make up their own minds what the 'value' of any given sports franchise (or other business) is.

Yes, those who will benefit massively are inclined to lie to the public. But the public is not required to be stupid enough to believe them.

Typically, teams are asking for $100-500 per citizen as a direct subsidy for the team/building... so I would hope that the voters ask the important questions. There is no remedy for voter stupidity, I'm afraid.

The 2009 NFL Salary Cap for their 53 man roster was 120 million. The Personal Income Tax rate for those who work in Minnesota is about 7.5%. That comes out to about $9 million in tax revenue a year when a State has an NFL Franchise operating under their tax jurisdiction. $9 million in tax revenue a year multiplied by 30 years comes out to $270 million dollars.

* Disclaimer, I chose to be conservative by assuming the NFL will have 0% growth over the next 30 years.

So the question for Minnesotans who pay taxes is, which taxes do you want to raise to make up for the shortage of tax revenue if the Vikings leave? Personal Property tax? Earned Income Tax? An increase in gas tax?

Not to be a broken record, but: A good chunk of that payroll is generated by money spent by in-state Vikings fans, who if the Vikings left would instead spend it on other entertainments. So much of the tax revenue — not all, but much — would still be collected, just from different people earning income in different jobs.

See this post for a lengthier discussion of the topic:

www.fieldofschemes.com/news/archives/2011/06/4580_vikings_stadium_12.html

Neil,

You are a wrong.

The NFL salary cap is dictated and set by the collective bargaining agreement for television broadcast rights between the NFL the respective television broadcast companies (ABC, CBS, FOX and ESPN) for each NFL season. That lump-sum of money (a rough estimate for 2009 is 3.5 billion) is divided 32 ways (a part for each NFL Franchise) and makes up about 80%+ of the NFL salary cap for each team.

* I am keeping the explanation general as this discussion is about taxable revenue streams not the economics of the NFL salary cap.

So that 110 million of taxable earned income (as I said, estimated to be about 9 million a year)and is used to support Minnesota schools, road construction and other State Tax-based efforts is implicitly being funded by Budweiser, Miller Lite, Chevy, Geico, et al. Of course there are others States (California for instance) who are chomping at the bit to get this revenue into their State Budget.

The 'revenue' you are speaking of is different; local ticket sales, concession stand sales and general 'football game' revenue. But even your thoughts on this revenue staying in the State are horribly flawed and anybody who lives in Minnesota will relate. I am going to be conservative and estimate the average NFL season ticket holder (buying two season tickets) in the Twin-Cities is having to make at least a $1,000 financial commitment a year to '10 NFL games a year', (Purchasing tickets, parking, memorabilia, concession sales, et al). Do you think any Minnesotan (in their right mind), with a $1,000 to burn in the fall, is going to shovel their driveway so they can drive to the Mall of America or are they shoveling their driveway to so they can drive to the Airport to visit Miami?

Seriously, who comes up with the stuff on this web site? Do they do any basic homework? I still think a more applicable name for this website would be "Articles of Schemes" because I am not sure what the editor is up to, but it's not finding the truth.

Wouldn't the way to great national prosperity be for there to be, say, about 200 or 250 NFL teams? Think of all the player salaries, meals, hotels, car rentals, gambling, and so on that could ensue in a never ending year round schedule.

I love the Vikings so build a less expensive stadium that can be expanded and upgraded over next few years, as the money is available. In stages. Fans in Greenbay have sat in the snow and loved it! LOL

No Vote = Slavery! Funny how 99.99% of the people that want the TAX do not even live in Ramsey County! Hundreds of thousands of people DIED for the right to Vote, but show some people a Sports Ball and they could give a Damb! Get a Life, there is more to life then the Vikings!

America is BROKE and so are YOU!